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waypointing help thread

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waypointing help thread

Post by Easykill on Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:20 pm

"if i can offer any help somehow please just let me know."

Anyone is free to try their hand at waypointing if they want. We can help you get started if you are interested. I'm not trying to pressure you if you aren't interested but I didn't want you to feel you weren't welcome to try.

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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Wampa on Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:42 pm

I'd be willing to give it a go. I assume it's essentially telling x amount of bots where to go, creating 'waypoints' along the way? How specific does it get in terms of each individual bot? Do you say "build sg here", "play hw here", "medic run to here, here, here, flag, return to here, here here, cap"?

I know zilch but wouldn't mind trying it out. Any specific links you can offer?

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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by M0N3Y on Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:59 pm

Wampa wrote:I'd be willing to give it a go. I assume it's essentially telling x amount of bots where to go, creating 'waypoints' along the way? How specific does it get in terms of each individual bot? Do you say "build sg here", "play hw here", "medic run to here, here, here, flag, return to here, here here, cap"?

I know zilch but wouldn't mind trying it out. Any specific links you can offer?

Yes we have a link in forums you can download the tutorial. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Easykill on Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:40 pm

I'll write you up some info tomorrow about which version to install, how to install it.

You can't direct individual bots. You set paths for all the bots and they move based on where they spawn and how they prioritize tasks. You can set waypoints for sgs, snipers, hw, demo. Snipers generally stay in a sniper position until they fire and then they might move. The hw and demo only seem to use the defensive points as suggestions, you can't force them to take up positions, but demo positions usually lay pipe traps so you can position demo points carefully to use this. You can't force a particular bot to take a particular path so it is important not to put paths everywhere but to choose the most important points to cover. If you have to many paths they will tend to just take the shortest path anyway. You can tweak this somewhat but you don't have absolute control over them.

Read the tutorial money linked to and I'll talk about installing and getting it to work tomorrow and answer any questions I can.

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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Wampa on Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:58 pm

This sounds pretty interesting. I will give it a go but can't promise much success or how often. First step though, i can't download attachments off that link. It says i don't have permission. Can ya hook a wampa up?

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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Easykill on Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:45 pm

You need to download version .701, NOT the newest version:

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You run the installer and install it in your steam\steamapps\yourusername\team fortress classic directory. Do not put it in the tfc subdirectory below the team fortress classic directory.

In order to load foxbot with tfc you need to then go into steam and right click team fortress classic in the steam games list and choose properties.

Then go into Set launch options and add the following to your launch command line. If there is something already there then add a space at the end and the following:

-dll ..\FoxBot\foxbot.dll

Then go into the Foxbot\tfc directory that should now be directly under the team fortress classic directory. Open the foxbot.cfg file in a text editor. Find the line min_bots and change this to -1. Find the line max_bots and change this to -1. Save the file. The reason for doing this is that you don't want bots spawned while you are setting up waypoints or the game can have a tendency to crash. When you are working you set up your waypoints and then save them. The waypoint file is loaded at the map load so any changes you save to the file can not be tested until you reload the map. Then you will manually (or with a script see below) launch the bots for testing. Then you will kick all the bots before you proceed to make changes to your waypoints.

Here are some console commands to keep in mind.
You bring up the console by hitting the ~ key while in the game.

kickall - this kicks all the bots/clears the server of players
map mapname - this loads the map and associated waypoint file and any script.

addbot teamnumber classnumber - this adds one bot on the given team and class. For example addbot 1 2 adds a sniper(2) on blue team(1). The numbers are the same numbers that show up as you choose team or class by pressing the n or b keys in the game.

When you want to waypoint you will load steam as normal and right click team fortress classic and choose to play the game. You will then choose create server, rather than find servers, in the game. Make SURE that you put a password on your server so that no one else comes on.

I am going to include the script that I use to setup for waypointing. You don't have to use it. You can set up your own if you prefer.
You can open the file and look at the binds as you are first working to know what keys perform what functions. Note the q key is tied to the alias that spawns bots for testing. It spawns a series of 16 random bots. The class structure won't match the classes set up for the server. I know there are 2 engies and a couple of snipes on the server but don't know all the details of what the server spawns. If engies or snipes don't spawn you can always kick some or all of the bots and add them manually which is what I usually do to test some of the key positions, such as sg building, anyway.

To use the script you put it into the tfc directory under team fortress classic directory, NOT in the tfc directory under Foxbot.
Then in the game console you will put

exec waypointing.cfg
which will run the script. This will set up the binds and turn on some needed foxbot variables and debugging.

You need to both create the waypoints and then create the paths you want between them. You can create one way or two way paths. If you are having them do something like run over the battlements in 2fort then you don't want them to try to run back up the drop point and would only set a one way path. There are keys for setting up two way paths automatically but I always just manually set them both ways so my script doesn't support this. You would create two waypoints then you would stand at the first waypoint and press the , key which is my bind for "pathwaypoint create1" and then move to the second waypoint and press . for the "pathwaypoint create2". Then if you want the path to go the other way you do the same from the second waypoint back to the first.

You can load maps that have waypoints included with foxbot to learn from them or, if you want to see some of the waypoints we have done you can find the files in this thread. Note some of the foxbot included maps seems rather complicated. Some of the things that might be confusing to you are why they add multiple flag points around a flag area. This seems to be so that the bots will tend to prioritize that area more heavily than the cap point. As you can't specify that certain paths should be taken a certain percentage of the time it is best to not make things more complicated than they need to be. If you have paths through every hall etc. then the bots are just going to choose the shortest paths and ignore the others anyway. Pick only a couple of paths so they are attacking from more than one direction and can't be too easily trapped at one point and make the paths so that they are covering the most important areas or chokepoints but don't try to cover everything.

This should get you started. If you have any questions just ask. I will probably, at that point, move this post and follow up questions to its own thread but I wanted you to get a chance to see this first.
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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Wampa on Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:39 pm

Going through these step by step to check it out. One question though, (and probably a million more to come) do i need to disable or change anything when i go to hop into a public server?

Also, the script that binds waypoint commands, does that affect my bound keys when i'm in game? Is this why i may want to edit that file?

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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Easykill on Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:37 pm

do i need to disable or change anything when i go to hop into a public server?

I don't but you could remove the command land launch option in the game for steam if you wish. Having this installed has never caused me trouble with the anti-cheat stuff if that is what you are concerned about.


"Also, the script that binds waypoint commands, does that affect my bound keys when i'm in game?

It's only going to affect the binds while you are waypointing. Your default binds are loaded when you play the game, the script will change the binds while you are running the game. If you close and restart the game your old binds should be back unless you do more than run the scripts, such as adding the binds to your tfc configuration files.

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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Wampa on Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:09 pm

Cool, thanks for that. I kind of figured as much but figured it wouldn't hurt to ask.

Ok, so here goes.

Last night I started a listen server on evenflow. Just for fun, i added a bot to see what he would do. Turns out, he started running to my flag. That map, however, has a button to turn lasers off at the flag first. So the bot ran straight to the flag and into the lasers. Almost like a half waypoint? Do bots just automatically go to flags by default? I was kind of expecting him to just stand there when he spawned.

When I am in a map and create a waypoint beginning/end (i haven't tried this yet), how do I know where I put it; in case i want to delete it? Is there any visible clue that will be shown?

Once I get a path for a waypoint A to B, i'm going to want to save my single path masterpiece before adding more. How is the file saved?

I have a 'tfc' directory located in my Foxbot directory, which contains a directory called 'waypoints'. I'm assuming that's where it would be saved to? There's a shitton of maps in there with the fwp extension (obviously the waypoint file for a given map). Is this .fwp file the file you will then put on your server?

Thanks for the help. Smile

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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Easykill on Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:49 pm

Wampa wrote:

Last night I started a listen server on evenflow. Just for fun, i added a bot to see what he would do. Turns out, he started running to my flag. That map, however, has a button to turn lasers off at the flag first. So the bot ran straight to the flag and into the lasers. Almost like a half waypoint? Do bots just automatically go to flags by default? I was kind of expecting him to just stand there when he spawned.

haha, I'm glad you mentioned this.
normally they will start running around randomly against walls , grabbing nearby packs but their behavior won't make much sense. They don't stand still. The bot code is designed to have them run in various directions and jump if they are lost so they don't get stuck and can possibly pick up a waypoint.

Since they aren't able to just go running for the flag I double checked and there are already waypoints for evenflow, but there is no script. I thought that I had carefully checked all of the maps before I made my updated post but I missed this.

As for the lasers that is because the waypoints aren't set up correctly and the map needs a script. Whenever you have behaviors that only take place once other things happen you need to set up control points and a script so they only use certain points once the necessary conditions have been met.

I haven't looked at the other maps yet so I'm not sure of their map style or which to recommend for you. It would be best if you worked with a straightforward capture the flag map first(one without security switches and such), rather than jumping straight into scripting.

I can talk about designing an evenflow script but it would be best to get your feet wet with the other stuff first. When I have a chance I'll download the other maps and see if one would be better than the others for you to start with. Siege would have been good but I have already done that. You can do some for siege too though, if you want, and if they work better than mine they can replace the ones I did.


When I am in a map and create a waypoint beginning/end (i haven't tried this yet), how do I know where I put it; in case i want to delete it? Is there any visible clue that will be shown?

Yes there is a white post. paths from the post you are standing near show as white lines between and paths to the post as yellow. You won't see any of this unless you have a script set up that turns waypointing on, such as the one I included. If you don't want to use that file then we will have to talk about how to construct your own. Until you exec that waypointing.cfg script you won't see the debugging info show up in the console and you won't see any waypoints on your screen in the map. There is no risk of running that script in the tfc game console if you are concerned about that.


Once I get a path for a waypoint A to B, i'm going to want to save my single path masterpiece before adding more. How is the file saved?

if you are using my script then it is the end key. You can open waypointing.cfg in a text file editor and look at the binds for info.

q will spawn 16 bots

these add or delete a waypoint (shown as a white post in map)
bind "INS" "waypoint add"  -
bind "DEL" "waypoint delete" 

these save and load waypoint files:
bind "END" "waypoint save" 
bind "HOME" "waypoint load" 

bind "i" "waypoint info" -this will show info on the screen and more detail in the console about the waypoint that you are standing on in the map. 
bind "m" "waypoint menu"  -this is the main waypoint menu where you choose the purpose of the waypoint, set control points etc.

bind "PGUP" "pathwaypoint_connect on" 
bind "PGDN" "pathwaypoint_connect off" 

these create and delete connections between paths: To create a path you go to a waypoint and press , then go to the waypoint you want this one to connect to and press . this creates a directional path from the first to the second
bind "," "pathwaypoint create1" 
bind "." "pathwaypoint create2" 
bind "[" "pathwaypoint remove1" 
bind "]" "pathwaypoint remove2" 



I have a 'tfc' directory located in my Foxbot directory, which contains a directory called 'waypoints'. I'm assuming that's where it would be saved to? There's a shitton of maps in there with the fwp extension (obviously the waypoint file for a given map). Is this .fwp file the file you will then put on your server?

correct. It is best to back these up as you go. When the time comes to release them for the server they are small enough that you can post them as attachments in the map request thread but you need to zip compress them first.

edit:

I have had a closer look at waterwar and ko_myth_5v5. These would be good maps for you to work on. On waterwar there are two ways in, a door and an upper walk. There is a switch to lower the water in the basement but it doesn't have to be down to be able to get the flag. This would require a very simple script if the water is to come down or it could be left out entirely. If you chose to lower the water then all the other waypoints could be as normal and you would put a flag waypoint AND a command point number at the switch and then I could help you set up the simple script.

ko_myth would require no script for anything.

Let me know if you prefer to work on waterwar or ko_myth or to do another set of waypoints for siege(or none of them). I will skip waterwar and myth for the time being and work on the next map on the list until you reply to this.

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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Wampa on Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:38 pm

Perfect. I'm going to try ko_myth first since it'll be simple. I agree i don't want to jump head first for things.

Of all the other maps i initially suggested i don't think there's any more with lasers although i've been wrong before!

Side note, i'm sure the tutorial would probably answer some of the questions i've posed however all i have is Office 2k at home and it's useless. lol So thanks for taking the time to type up stuff you've probably already typed before.

btw, i'm going to continue with the script you gave me just to lessen any confusion. I see no harm in using that and will probably just print it out to have in front of me.

Smile

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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Easykill on Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:35 pm

An alternative to office is libreoffice:

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There are windows and linux versions

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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Wampa on Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:25 am

Hey bud. I haven't had much time lately as things have been hectic but i've had some problems on the few attempts i've made. I need to go back and reread what you wrote to figure out what i'm doing wrong.

I really wanna do this so i can feel less like a freeloader and contribute something! lol

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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Wampa on Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:36 am

I'm trying to accomplish the basic fundamentals right now but keep freezing.

Im trying to make one line for them to run on, just to see it work.

I'll load a server without bots, exec waypointing.cfg and then proceed to make 1 waypoint (INS). I'll run about 20 feet and create a 2nd waypoint. Then I push (,) at the 2nd. I then run back to the 1st and push (.)

Then save it with (END).

I've tried reloading the map and also quitting out of tfc entirely, then go back, create server on the map and add a bot. I keep resulting in having the bot begin to run the line but as soon as he's on it the game freezes. What am I doin' wrong?? argh!

Also, what does "waypoint load" (HOME) do?

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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Easykill on Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:21 pm

waypoint load should load the latest saved waypoint file.
you still should reload the map before testing it out.

Did you make the changes to the foxbot.cfg file. If not you may be spawning a bot and then other bots will start spawning automatically shortly after the map is loaded. If bots start spawning because the configuration file hasn't been changed then the game will probably crash. Mine does that as well. If you have changed the foxbot file I'm not sure why it is crashing. Have you installed some other mods, like neoTF or something?

Also note that if you go to waypoint 2 and press , and then . at waypoint 1 you are creating a one way path from point 2 to point 1. If the bots are spawning and picking up point one then they shouldn't be travelling down the path to the second point as it is only one way from the other direction.

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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Wampa on Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:58 pm

Do i need to change anything in the config (where we originally set to -1) when i try to test waypoints?

I've tried simplifying as much as possible, i create 1 waypoint, run a short distance, create a 2nd waypoint. Save. Quit TFC. Restart tfc, run server, add bot and the moment they get on that line it freezes.

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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Wampa on Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:10 pm

i have played on servers running neotf but have not installed anything myself.

This is frustrating because i think i'd be good at it! lol

I tried on map xpress2k4. I went half way and created one single waypoint [INS].

I saved it. I reloaded. Added a bot. Once he got there i froze. I'm just wondering if there's something awry in my install and directory placements or something.

boxbot.cfg:

# Minimum bots in server (0 - 32 [-1 Turns this off])
min_bots -1

# Maximum bots in server (0 - 32 [-1 Turns this off])
max_bots -1

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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Easykill on Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:05 pm

" I'm just wondering if there's something awry in my install and directory placements or something.'

It doesn't sound like it. I don't think you would be able to set up any waypoints if something was out of place. Look in the console when you start and see if there is any error being reported. What directory is your Foxbot directory in?

I would also try making more points. You don't have to do the whole map but place a few more around and make a flag and a flag cap point and see what happens.

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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Wampa on Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:05 pm

I'm starting to get my shit together. Once i added flag points etc there was no more locking up. Smile

I've got a couple questions, is there a way to 'undo' the last action i make? I added a demo only spot on the flag but decided against it right after i did it. Without deleting the waypoint and losing all my paths i would have liked to just remove the demoman designation.

When I want to start dedicating defensive positions, should i use nearby waypoints? Or create a waypoint AND path to that specific area? Or can i just create a waypoint without a path and the defender will go there once i designate it with a defensive option?

If i dedicate a soldier/hw/demo waypoint i don't want the others taking that path from a previous waypoint, so since i designated it as one of those defensive points do i have to worry about a scout or something running there?

And now for the laziest of questions. Is there a way to mirror the paths I've created for the red team to apply to the blue? Or do i have to recreate all the paths for the blue team as well?

I'm slowly getting there! SmileSmile

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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Easykill on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:11 am

Wampa wrote:

I've got a couple questions, is there a way to 'undo' the last action i make? I added a demo only spot on the flag but decided against it right after i did it. Without deleting the waypoint and losing all my paths i would have liked to just remove the demoman designation.
You can generally clear a designation by doing it again. So, in this case, you should be able to set it as a demoman point again and it should clear it.


When I want to start dedicating defensive positions, should i use nearby waypoints? Or create a waypoint AND path to that specific area? Or can i just create a waypoint without a path and the defender will go there once i designate it with a defensive option?

They don't patrol a general area around a defensive waypoint. They will run to that point and sometimes stay still there. Other times they will run to and then move from it to something else. Defensive positions are not orders where you force them to take these positions. They are more suggestions and they won't always use them. This can be affected by the layout of other waypoints on the map and is something you will have to get a feel for. Their behavior can sometimes be confusing.
There have to be paths to everything. If there is no path connecting a waypoint to others then they will never go to it and it might spit up errors. The only things they leave the path for is to get packs because they are programmed to restock. Still, if you don't want them to use a particular pack don't put a waypoint near it and they are less likely to run for it. Also, on paths to packs near sg positions I only put an ammo marker on the pack waypoint to minimize the non-engie bots from fighting over it. Otherwise the engies won't have enough packs and they will start running long distances to restock. Sometimes the bots will agressively fight over packs and cause a backup. See next reply as well.


If i dedicate a soldier/hw/demo waypoint i don't want the others taking that path from a previous waypoint, so since i designated it as one of those defensive points do i have to worry about a scout or something running there?

Other classes won't run there but you don't want to place them directly in the main path that other bots are running. If, for example, you have a main path that the bots are running around the flag room to defend, place the sg and defensive points, snipes etc a bit off of the main path so they don't block bots trying to run around. Otherwise you will get bots pushing into each other and randomly jumping trying to get around stationary defenders. You want to keep any paths for general movement open and make the defensive points stub paths off of and not blocking the main path. This is something you should test after you are finished, making sure bots aren't getting hung up on each other, as well as making sure that bots aren't falling off of walls etc.


And now for the laziest of questions. Is there a way to mirror the paths I've created for the red team to apply to the blue? Or do i have to recreate all the paths for the blue team as well?

There is no way to mirror but you don't need to make waypoints for the blue team as the server will never spawn blue bots. Just do red.

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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Wampa on Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:17 pm

THank you!

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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Easykill on Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:52 pm

To clarify what I wrote above about everything having to have a path to it.

There is an exception to this which is the rocket jump /concussion jump point(which should be the landing point of a jump). In that case you don't put a path TO the waypoint, as then other bots will try to follow it up to the jump point. You only put a path FROM it.

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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Wampa on Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:50 pm

I'll take the help on that script for getting the bots to drop the water on waterwar. Very Happy

Here's another question -

i dug out another old (and simple) map from my archives and created the waypoints. Everything's good but... flagwise it's a map like torch2.

So, you know how on a regular CTF map the bots may stack up awaiting the flag to return to it's origin? They're stacking up in their own base waiting for the flag to be capped and return. Not ALL of them, but enough to make it silly. Other than that they're following my routes well. Any suggestions how to avoid them stacking up in their own base while waiting for the flag to return?

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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Easykill on Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:57 pm

You might be able to lessen that behavior by putting more than one flag goal waypoint at the cap point. This sometimes causes them to give greater priority to the cap area than the start point.

I made a .doc file with a tutorial and pictures on creating and testing the script file for waterwar. I am including it as an attachment here.
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Re: waypointing help thread

Post by Wampa on Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:44 pm

Thanks man!

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