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Map request topic

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Map request topic

Post by Easykill on Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:32 pm

Thought I would try to start a thread for discussion of map requests/rotation requests.

When the admins have time perhaps they would give these maps a look. It would be nice if there could be some experimentation with maps to see if any of them can amount to an interesting experience with the bots.

I would also suggest the idea that the map default rotation be changed, every month or so, to add one or two new maps into the rotation, as new maps are not likely to be voted on until people have some experience of them.

My first suggestions would be

1. Run!

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description:

Map Description : Flag running!
Map Objective : Take the green flag from the generator room to the Loading Dock. After capping,
the yellow flag will become availible. Take it to the generator. And so on.

2. Circle jerk

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description:

Circle Jerk - Attack and Defend
by Rev.Hippie

Objective: Blue must take their flag to the
opposite side of the map and deposit it in
the goal.

Scoring: 10 points per Capture for Blue, 5
points for Red each time the flagbearer dies.

Other Notes: Carry Passkey to the Red
toolshed and give your team 8 seconds of
invisibility. When flagbearer goes through
water or gate, Red team sees an alarm.

This is a simple map and might not work with so many bots, as it will probably be a spam fest, but it does tend to keep everyone together so the sense of fighting as a group would be strong.

3. dustplate

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It's a bowl like map but would be a nice change from the standards.


I will post links to filefactory for these maps when I am allowed to post links here.

EDIT: NOW WITH LINKIES

kind of disappointed that there is so little interest in this.


Last edited by Easykill on Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

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hunted style maps

Post by Easykill on Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:35 pm

I'm also curious as to why there are no hunted style maps. Have they been tested but found unacceptable?

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Re: Map request topic

Post by Supergremlin on Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:18 am

I think any hunted style maps would be a welcome addition, however the number of bots would have to be reduced to, say, 8 or 10 max, especially during off peak times when there's not that many people playing on the server. Otherwise you could end up with 16v6 to maybe 16v10 matches and that would totally suck, especially if the bots are the hunters.

New map rotations every month or so are also a good idea. It should be where near the end of every month or two months certain maps are listed for voting then after everyone votes the maps with the lowest votes get switched out for other maps at the beginning of the month.
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Re: Map request topic

Post by M0N3Y on Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:40 pm

Hey Easy, its not that there's little interest, its that we are trying to get server back to "OWOL" standards. (clear up a few glitches we still have with server, a few admin add-on glitches,etc). We are just trying to get server foundation down solid before we get all the extras.

Also keep in mind we have added 9 new maps since OWOL. You can see them in the "map rotation" post. I'm assuming if these maps have bot way-points, i don't see why we cant add but that's up to Omni to figure out if they can work on server.
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Re: Map request topic

Post by OmniDragon on Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:14 am

Oh yeah, I think everyone is open to new maps, we just have to decide if it's a bot-friendly map. Like gremlin said some maps are just plain epic like hunted maps, just not good for only a few people. Murderball imo is a great map, but the bots get a bit buggy on there and it's crashed the server a few times, so we've had to remove it.

There's been a handfull of map's we've tested. Some work, others just don't lol. But I think we'd all like to see fresh maps added. I'll take a look at the ones you've listed and do some testing.

The other issue is waypoints. In one hand thier pretty easy to make, in the other hand it's a long, tedious, time consuming process lol.
The Cove is an example of our custom waypoint building.

Anways, great idea adding a topic for new maps. I'll start testing those asap.
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Re: Map request topic

Post by Easykill on Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:52 pm

Is building waypoint files for maps something the community could help with or is that unrealistic?

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Re: Map request topic

Post by OmniDragon on Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:41 am

Sorry Easy didn't see your last post until I revisited for testing. No that's completely realistic! It would help alot actually, It's a bit tricky to getting them to work right though lemme warn ya ;D
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Re: Map request topic

Post by Easykill on Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:00 pm

I'm willing to try, though I probably won't be able to do it.

I have found this tutorial:

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but if you have a link to one that you think is appropriate please post it.

Also can you tell me if you have looked at or ruled out any of the maps I mentioned above. If they already have waypoint files available or if you have ruled them out as not wanted could you tell me so I don't waste time on them.

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Re: Map request topic

Post by M0N3Y on Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:21 pm

I posted a way-point tutorial in the FAQ forum.
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Re: Map request topic

Post by OmniDragon on Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:18 am

Take a look at Money's FAQ on waypointing. Also you'll find once you learn it, it's actually quite fun! Just takes alot of time. I need to add you as friend on steam so we can talk more about this! Smile

I'll try and post some more info on waypointing too, but it does look like Run has waypoints already!! So that's good news, I just have to make a res file for downloading the map and you can expect to see it on server soon! I have a huge list of maps I'm looking into now. Prolly a good 20 new maps. I'll make a list and post it here once I narrow them down. See, alot of them are almost identical to other maps we play.. but some are new and interesting. Like I said, when I narrow my list down, I'll post it for peeps to look at.
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Re: Map request topic

Post by Easykill on Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:27 am

M0N3Y wrote:I posted a way-point tutorial in the FAQ forum.


Thank You.
Is there a specific version of foxbot that we have to use to get these waypoints to work properly with the server?

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Re: Map request topic

Post by OmniDragon on Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:21 pm

Yeah! It has to be v.701!

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Re: Map request topic

Post by Easykill on Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:52 am

Been studying the 2fort waypointing a bit. Have some things I would like to make sure I'm not misunderstanding.

1. If branching multiple waypoints do they randomly choose the next waypoint or how do they decide which direction to take?

2 Reason for so many waypoints around flag to make sure they pick up the flag and don't run by it?

3. I'm a bit confused about the reason for so many waypoints right against the front wall of the bases. I assume it's so they have a path if they are knocked around by grenades on bridge but why are the ones at the base 2 way and not simply one way away from the wall? Is it to avoid bots getting hung up on each other? Is it in any way related to the rocket jump waypoints on the battlements or not?

3. Are all those waypoints, in places like the ramp room to keep bots from getting hung up on each other? Is it really necessary to have so many?

4. Is it best to avoid teleport waypoints as the bots don't seem to use them and I have read they can cause problems?

5. I assume, since there are never blue bots on this server that one only has to set up waypointing for red team? Or would this still cause some kind of problem for the map if you don't set up points for all teams?

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Re: Map request topic

Post by OmniDragon on Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:40 am

Ah! I did the same thing, looked at 2forts waypoints before starting my own.. It seems 2forts waypoints are good, but overly complicated to start out with. I'll try to help you, but there are things I don't get as well.

1. I tried the whole branching thing, after I finished and tested the bots would randomly run out a branch and stop... I also noticed 2fort had doubled pathed waypoints so I tried that, then the bots started running back and forth lol not making any progress. Somthing CL told me when I was trying: Keep them simple!

2. I'm pretty sure if flag is setting off waypoints they leave path, get flag, and return to path. I'm pretty sure that's how it works. So they shouldn't have to have too many on the flag itself.

3. Yeah I don't get that at all either... Maybe you should take a look at waypoints for.. say smallfort or a more simple map and see it's waypoints. I don't think it's necessary to have so many.

4. Yeah, heck even on maps like shutdown the engy bots build tele's but I don't think I've ever seen a bot take one. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only map they take teles on is 2fort? I'd just not worry about trying to make them take tele's especially just starting out.

5. Oh yeah, you'll only need red team. Don't waste time on blue..

I hope this kinda helped lol. Remember I'm a noob at this too. I had alot of help from Chaotic Llama. Then alot of it was trial and error; Making, testing, deleting, making again lol. Ect, Ect. Anyways Good Luck!
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Re: Map request topic

Post by Easykill on Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:40 am

Thanks for the speedy reply.

So on the branching issue. If you feel branching doesn't work very well how does one handle a situation where you want the bots to do something in common and then head off in different directions?

For example, the 2fort battlement spawn you want them to run around and pick up ammo and armor then you want some to head right over the battlement on offense and some to head left and drop down to play defense.

Or you want them to run to the enemy base and then split up and attack from different directions.

Do you need to just make two completely different paths over the entire map and start them with a waypoint at slightly different spots in the respawn? If you did so would they then go to the nearest first waypoint when they spawn to start?

Or how else could you handle this?

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Re: Map request topic

Post by OmniDragon on Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:14 pm

Hmm... good question, I'm not sure. I do know that they choose the closest waypoint to go back to. As far as which way they should go, it's totally up to you! Any variety would be good hehe. You can also make areas. I'm not sure if money posted that FAQ but say you want a soldier to defend a certain area, you'd make an area waypoint for that. Then he'd just stand wherever and camp that area.

Also, in other news, I uploaded and tested two new maps:

1. run: At first I wasn't sure why owol didn't host this one, but now I do know lol. The bots have no rhyme or reason to where they spawn. Many times they would spawn 2 feet from blue, which makes for some crazy stories lol but most people don't like to get cheap shotted right off the spawn lol. Verdict: Taken off server.

2. 1forttfc: Crazy, crazy map! You have to take the flag from your base to the cap point, mid map on the tower. It's really hard, the secret is to get some engys up on the red spawn room. They only have one spawn point and two doors as exits. So when engies get up they can spam emps down on the roof for some serious fun! Plus demo and such can help hold them in. Prolly good for sniping too. Verdict: Stays!
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Re: Map request topic

Post by Easykill on Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:13 pm

I'm about 4/5ths of the way through setting up some waypoints in dustplate_a. I constructed waypoints a few times on the first part and then started over. In the first part especially there will be the tendency for humans to come through the back way and it wasn't an easy place to have the bots move around and control the choke point. I had no good results with trying to get the bots onto the back walk so decided to give that up and focus on a series of gun,sniper and defense placements on the main building. I have tested a bit with a range of bot classes and the results seem reasonable. I have found, though, that what works with a few bots often gets different results as numbers increase and it is very difficult to predict how things will play out with a server full of people with the bots engaging enemies. I'm also confused about how to make the classes, like pyro and spy, that don't have class specific info attached to waypoints, to behave sensibly. I decided they will just have to run around and engage what they find.

I am also finding it difficult to keep the bots from doing stupid things. For example I had snipers navigating well for considerable distances ( blue lines showing the proper snipe target point) only to have them suddenly change target to a position closer to where they started from, and therefore far from where they were at that moment, when they were nearly in position. Or engies having a clear path around a corner to a target point but choosing instead to cut across a series of waypoints and fall off walkways as if they were suddenly choosing to directly connect up waypoints that I hadn't directly connected.

Anyway it will probably be an embarrassing first effort but I was wondering, if I posted the file as an attachment here when I'm done, if you would want to have a look at the results and see if it appears to be too pathetic.

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Re: Map request topic

Post by OmniDragon on Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:55 pm

Easykill wrote: I am also finding it difficult to keep the bots from doing stupid things.

Yeah! I know what you mean... But alot of times they'll decide to engage and enemy or take a stroll in some bizzaire direction lol.

Easykill wrote:Anyway it will probably be an embarrassing first effort but I was wondering, if I posted the file as an attachment here when I'm done, if you would want to have a look at the results and see if it appears to be too pathetic.

Yeah man! Just send it our way, I'm sure several of us would look at them. I'm pretty sure, by what your saying, It's gonna be alot better than my thecove waypoints.. I was actually pretty embarrassed by them lol. But people still play it so it's not too bad I guess haha. I'll download dustplate_a so I'm ready for them when your ready!
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Re: Map request topic

Post by Easykill on Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:41 pm

I'm having trouble googling info on whether you can load a map like dustplate or dustbowl to a specific stage(for example with the first flag already capped). Or a command to jump the map to the next stage once you are in the map. Or do I have to manually run the flag in to get to the next part?

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Re: Map request topic

Post by OmniDragon on Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:43 pm

Oh.. If I was you, I'd download amxmod, install it. Then get the noclip plugin.

You wan't the full installer of amxmodx
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Once you get that installed, then get this
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That will alow you to fly through walls and doors. Just make sure you shut it off before you add a waypoint lol. Bots can't fly Smile
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Re: Map request topic

Post by Easykill on Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:25 pm

My big problem is in the testing and tweaking where I make small adjustments then need to reload the map so I can see how the bots behave. This gets to be tedious without a fast way to advance the map to the next cap stage. Would noclip help with this? I would need to be able to change the bot spawn location to the next part of the map.


I'm still tweaking. I've been fiddling with the first area and think I'm reasonably satisfied. The second section has a forward building and I was happy with that until I set up an alias to spawn 16 bots. The lifts, which are the kind with a button, weren't a problem when I was testing with fewer bots but now I'm finding with so many bots that inevitably one will walk UNDER the lift and then the lift gets stuck and others start to clog up underneath the lift. Is there a trick to ease this problem; some way to weave waypoints around the lift to clear underneath the lift while it is up? If not then I may scrap putting them on the forward building and simplify by moving almost all of the defense points onto the ground around the choke point.

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Re: Map request topic

Post by OmniDragon on Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:23 pm

I mean ya, you could noclip to the next stage of the map, You can kinda tell where the bots spawn and start new points from there. Or you could just noclip the flag to the point and advance so you don't have to wait for the doors ect.

Wow man it sounds like your making good progress! Yeah, see on alot of our maps, with lifts (crossover2) they und up getting stuck. Nothing a few emps won't fix hehe. Either way, if you want them to avoid that area all together that'll prolly work too. It's be your unique take on things! Smile
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I'm attaching the first results...

Post by Easykill on Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:48 pm

Part 1:
I put one way waypoints from a point in the back corner of the cap area to catch bots that fall off or go haywire and pull them back to the spawn point. It seems to help.

Part 2:

I had a much more elaborate setup at the forward building with heavies and guns on the different roof tiers.
Problems: Everything that came forward wanted to get up the lift and soon lots of bots were stuck under the lift and wouldn't let it drop down.
This was helped by removing waypoints to the packs, which they were fighting over, and simply having one ammo pack waypoint for the engie to build.
Still, I found that the bots didn't seem to want to move up to the positions on the upper tiers anyway. The heavies,demos and sollys came up but instead of going to nearby defense positions they dropped back down to the flag waypoint. I thought about removing the flag waypoint but then they wouldn't have pushed toward the choke point and their behavior would have been more random. I decided that the bots probably would have moved around and fallen off the roof once fighting started. Once blue broke through they wouldn't be able to set up there again with any success. So, although it might have given a more interesting feel to the play at first, I decided it wasn't worth all the trouble and would probably quickly amount to a disadvantage. I decided to just remove all that complexity and have them run toward, and set up on, the ground around the first choke point hole and avoid the building altogether. I doubt blue will make much use of that building either.

I'm still not happy with the forward part of two. I have tried moving the flag marker and tried without the flag marker (which causes them to run around more randomly), but I can't seem to get them to populate the defense points I have set up. I even tried setting up a script on the gate opening to change their behavior once the gate opens so they don't run at the gate immediately, but the gates don't have a cap specific message(they use the same message for every cap stage so the first gate opening at cap one was triggering things off) and I couldn't figure out how to set up the script so that the first cap gate message didn't trigger anything but the second cap gate message did.

Another issue I had was having enough bots running forward to keep blue distracted and fighting to hold land, while not leaving the actual cap area undefended. Few bots seemed to want to set up in the cap area. It's difficult to determine how this will play out without seeing it in a real world situation. It may be that defense at the cap would toughen up as we drove the bots back.


Part 3:
I had an engie on the roof of the forward building but the gun didn't reach far enough to be effective so I removed all the ladder pack and engie points on the roof and simplified it on the ground.

I have a similar problem as with cap two, in that the bots don't seem to want to use most of the defense points I have set up for them. I have only seen an engie once set up on the two buildings overlooking the hole to the underground way in the middle part of the map. It may be just as well if I removed those entirely and didn't have bots trying to get on the roof to get packs, but I'm not sure.

I also think the underground path is going to be a problem. I wanted something there so the humans couldn't get an easy foothold and not face any disruption. I think that shortcut will be popular with the players. On the other hand, being a shortcut, most of the bots want to take it and I'm afraid the main road is going to be too weakly defended for too long a distance.

Anyway, it's only a first step and I think it is to the point where I need to let it go for feedback. I'll just be spinning my wheels without some feedback and some experience on how it plays out on the server with people. It feels weak when I play it, though they don't have a problem keeping me from the cap area, but I also don't have the bots jacked up as much as the server so it is hard to determine just by playing alone.


If you change anything could you tell me what you changed so I can learn?
If you have any questions or criticisms about why I did certain things let me know.
Some of this will need to be experienced in a real game with a reasonable number of players so I, and others, can discuss the main weaknesses and make needed changes. If it is decided that it is worth testing on the server I will probably set up another thread for complaints about the results.

Attachments
dustplate_a.fwp.zip You don't have permission to download attachments.(4 Kb) Downloaded 5 times

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Re: Map request topic

Post by OmniDragon on Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:49 pm

Wow man! I got them and tested them today after reading your post.. All I can say is I'm impressed, the time and energy you put in this really shows!

This is a very big and wide open map, so the bots will be really spaced out and that presents a different challenge than what were used to. I actually found it funny when the bots fell down. They would immediatly run toward the ladder.. which is good. I can see your approach, it's better to get suck on a ladder than just randomly flail around down there. If you notice on my thecove waypoints, on the last cap you can just let all the bots fall down and leave them.. they don't know how to get out lol. Anyways man, I really don't know what you could change. It's gonna be a super, super tough map for us. Which is good!

I'd say it's ready for testing, but I'll wait for your OK to set it up on server! Smile Just tell me when!
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Re: Map request topic

Post by Easykill on Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:26 pm

"I'd say it's ready for testing, but I'll wait for your OK to set it up on server! Just tell me when!"

It's no problem for you to replace the waypoint file once it's on the server if we adjust it, correct?
I'd like to see it for a while with a server full of people so we can figure out where the consistent weak points are. If people really hate something about it because it is either too easy or too frustrating we can alter it one way or the other.

The server bots spawn as random classes right? Or are there certain amounts of each class that will spawn? It will play out quite differently depending on whether there are sufficient snipes and engies spawning. On the last cap, for example, those couple of distant snipe points, mid map, will probably be a bitch if they stay populated.

I thought I would set up a separate thread for each map's waypoint discussion as it goes to the server and this thread could remain primarily for discussing map requests.

Then, if you are reasonably satisfied with the results, and you want me to work on other maps that you would like to put in the rotation but don't have time to do yourself, post the map name/link in this thread and I'll see what I can do with them.

BTW, I take criticism well so if there is something that you think is weak that I need to work on, or you want to work on it, I'm not going to be offended. I just want to keep the server evolving so people don't get bored.

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Re: Map request topic

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